(Rather than spending the next week riding a philosophical merry-go-round where we end up wondering if our own existence is merely an assertion, or if we are all just butterflies dreaming that we are humans, let's get back to the topic, eh?)
"Because the entire basis of the argument here is this
Suffering = Bad [assertion] God allows suffering; ergo God is bad"
.. SAVEDJW, the purpose of this thread is to give answers to the question 'Why does a Theistic God allow animals to suffer?' .
This question in itself is not an attack on God.. It is not an accusation or necessarily the start of a debate.. It is merely a question.
Whether suffering being bad is an undeniable truth, or merely an assertion, is NOT the topic.
Whether anyone can decide if God's actions are good or bad, when atheists don't believe in a God and thus only have their own thoughts by which to judge good and bad, is also NOT the topic.
Here's the original question for you:
Why does your God (if you are a theist that is) allow animals to suffer? How would you explain it? (Suffering is beneficial, good and necessary for x reason.. He doesn't care.. Because of mans fall from perfection..
these are examples of actual answers to a question, rather than evasions.)
You can avoid the question, or admit you don't know the answer, of course.
Or you can continue to post off-topic about how our feelings and thoughts are irrelevant, as I expect you to based on experience.
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
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Poor Animals
by HeyThere inwow.
the bible really is something else.
i believe i am becoming athiest.
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754
Theists, why does God allow suffering..
by The Quiet One in..specifically, the suffering of animals.
you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.
i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.
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defender of truth
David Hume's formulation of the problem of evil in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion:
"[God's] power we allow [is] infinite: Whatever he wills is executed: But neither man nor any other animal are happy: Therefore he does not will their happiness. His wisdom is infinite: He is never mistaken in choosing the means to any end: But the course of nature tends not to human or animal felicity: Therefore it is not established for that purpose. Through the whole compass of human knowledge, there are no inferences more certain and infallible than these. In what respect, then, do his benevolence and mercy resemble the benevolence and mercy of men?"
.. I would trust your own idea of what is good and bad than a being that is all powerful and yet does not alleviate anyone's suffering.
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The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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defender of truth
Thank you for explaining and I'm sorry for the sarcasm.
You misread my post slightly, I was talking about people here shouting and jeering at you. Then the following were your own words. The illustration clearly fell flat. Your insults and condascension are completely unnecessary, though. Intelligient people do not need to insult people that do not understand them.
Anyway, let's move on.. -
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The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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defender of truth
Focus said:"I have done much work, starting where Dr Bergman left off, on the mental illnesses exhibited by jWs - and by ex-jWs, alas, as the concerted baboon-pack attacks illustrate.
Viewing the percentage of adherents or attachees seriously damaged (as objectively defined) by the overall encounter as the metric (i.e., the means of measuring), and restricting one's survey to cults/religions which have (say) more than 10,000 adherents.. the Watchtower Sicksiety is, by far, the very worst of them all."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/281308/1/A-precious-gift-to-all-from-Jehovah-channelled-via-Focus#.U7Kd2l2t-o8
.. In which case, having done so much good work on mental illnesses exhibited by ex-jw's , you should know better than to fling insults at those that do not understand you or react badly. If the majority of us are so mentally handicapped in your view, then fine.
But would you even consider walking into a home for mentally ill people, and calling those who are shouting at or jeering you "doozy-headed, sh!tferbrains doofuses" and "twits"? Would it aid either yourself or them to talk down to them, or insult those who do not understand your way of communicating (or just simply dislike you) ? Empathy is needed.
Just something to think about.
Thank you for listening, O great one. -
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The problems Bible believers have with Atheists is the burden of proof is on the Believer and we just do not have enough proof.
by booker-t ini recently posted a post telling this board my athesit coworker stumped me with questions about the validity of the ark story and i just cannot stop talking to her.
i love hearing her side and point of view which in the past i would have dismissed as "satanic" thinking.
she has some very good questions and i am having a hard time answering them.
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defender of truth
Sorry it's off topic, but this is bothering me and I can't get it out of my head. Was my post at the bottom of page 2 insulting or offensive to anyone?It was just my musing on how people think and the possible effect of taking Bible stories literally. I wholeheartedly apologise if anyone thought I meant all Bible believers are insensitive to suffering.
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Poor Animals
by HeyThere inwow.
the bible really is something else.
i believe i am becoming athiest.
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defender of truth
HeyThere said:"Oh, and why all the dang animal offerings? Why would a bird have to die for mold in your house or a period...or sex? Sheesh"
You might find these interesting..
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/how-many-animals-has-god-killed.html
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http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/222352/1/Theists-why-does-God-allow-suffering#.U7JmCV2t-o8 -
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The problems Bible believers have with Atheists is the burden of proof is on the Believer and we just do not have enough proof.
by booker-t ini recently posted a post telling this board my athesit coworker stumped me with questions about the validity of the ark story and i just cannot stop talking to her.
i love hearing her side and point of view which in the past i would have dismissed as "satanic" thinking.
she has some very good questions and i am having a hard time answering them.
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defender of truth
Bandontherun said:"Constantly making fun of people who did not agree with you for a host of reasons is a sick mind."
and also:
"There is no need to anger people. All you do is hurt yourself."
.. Well put, I could not agree with you more. Please point to any post of mine where I make fun of or insult anyone.
Talking about making fun of people who disagree with you..
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race androsposteda day ago(6/30/2014)
Post5of6
"stfu either way fools."
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ablebodiedmanposteda day ago(6/29/2014)
Post692of692
Joined5/6/2009
" 'I do not know how men come to the idea there is no "evidence" of intelligent design and purpose in this universe...'
Me neither.
The amount of evidence is overwhelming!
It can only be denied through ignorance or ridicule. "
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Maranathaposted~ 10 hours ago(6/30/2014)
Post2of3
"silly questions about animals killing each other"
"let's ask dumb questions about God 'letting it happen', shall we?"
"Just asking stupid questions like you all are." -
68
The problems Bible believers have with Atheists is the burden of proof is on the Believer and we just do not have enough proof.
by booker-t ini recently posted a post telling this board my athesit coworker stumped me with questions about the validity of the ark story and i just cannot stop talking to her.
i love hearing her side and point of view which in the past i would have dismissed as "satanic" thinking.
she has some very good questions and i am having a hard time answering them.
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defender of truth
"And saying that they and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah knew no better is a sorry excuse. God instituted marriage between one man and one woman in the Garden of Eden. Yet the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were sexually perverse, both young and old, rich and poor. You see how America is getting with it's homosexual agenda? Yeah, it was like that, only much worse."
.. So practicing homosexuality is an immoral act deserving of death today, would you say? -
68
The problems Bible believers have with Atheists is the burden of proof is on the Believer and we just do not have enough proof.
by booker-t ini recently posted a post telling this board my athesit coworker stumped me with questions about the validity of the ark story and i just cannot stop talking to her.
i love hearing her side and point of view which in the past i would have dismissed as "satanic" thinking.
she has some very good questions and i am having a hard time answering them.
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defender of truth
" Does not evolution teach survival of the fittest? So, it's ok for the strong animals to kill the weak in evolution but let's ask dumb questions about God "letting it happen", shall we? "
It is 'ok' for animals to kill the weak because they have no conscience or morals, they rely on instinct to survive.
That is nature, we are stuck with it.
Why your idea of God designed animals to inflict incredible pain on each other, get cancer and be tormented and tortured by many disease and parasites, which are creatively varied I must admit, is another topic really..
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/222352/21/Theists-why-does-God-allow-suffering#5044183